Answers to Scotlands Future about Scottish independence
I have decided to answer some of the Questions from someone calling themselves ScotlandsFuture on Twitter about Scots independence:
1) Discussion of Scottish independence in chatrooms and forums is always shut down by extreme SNP supporters
That's not my experience, quite the reverse. British unionists own the papers and can block pro-independence comments. I find that the independence side tends to provide a logical argument ie that independence is normality and most countries are independent. The unionist case depends upon the illogical assumption that Scotland is incapable of independence and often it descends into abuse against 'sweaty socks' (Jocks) etc I could point you towards loads of such comments on youtube and in fact I've made a film about it here!
2) It seems they can't answer valid questions so they mount ad-hominem attacks, calling people traiters, anti-Scottish, Labour stooges etc
No Questions yet but more witless allegations.
3) But I want those questions out in the open. I want people to really think about the consequences and implications of independence
In other words I want to scaremonger and put people of, yet no questions yet
4) Maybe there are good answers and I have nothing to worry about. I would very much like to hear some answers from decent SNP supporters
You'll get them but I doubt you will listen!
5) So I'll use this account to ask some of those questions. Who knows, maybe someone will answer...
Maybe they will, get on with it!
6) Here goes - How much would an independent Scottish government have to spend on services and how would it compare to the current arrangement?
This is impossible to answer because we don't know what the economic situation will be when we are independent. We do know from GERS that Scotland puts more in than we get back out, that Labour wasted hundreds of billions and lied about Scotland's economic prospects with independence in the 1970's. But just as Gordon Brown can't accurately predict the British budget in ten years time I can't forsee the future either, what a shock eh, bet you're really disappointed.
7) SNP want to reduce voting age in independence referendum. A cynical attempt to manipulate the result?
No. The SNP have had this policy for years to reduce the voting age to 16. It's not new and it wasn't arrived at recently.
8) How can the SNP find the money for a bill which won't get through parliament when they're cutting spending on everything else?
As you should be aware the Scottish parliament as a devolved parliament exists on a financial settlement provided by Westminster. Within that settlement the SNP can choose to use the money as they see fit. The pary has already produced a draft bill. They have also extended the debate through the National Conversation. The unionists didn't want to discuss independence and set up the Calman commission and filled it with various worthies whose only qualification was that they were willing to ignore independence. That cost money, produced a report and then it was kicked into the long grass because the Tories (who are likely to form the next Government) didn't like its conclusions.
All they suggested was a 10p unusable tax rather than 3p unusable tax but the Conservatives prefer as little power as possible going to Scotland (as they proved in office last time) Calman was a costly sham.
Labour have said they support a referendum on independence and would vote for it. That was when Wendy was leader, unfortunately she didn't clear it with Gordon (her boss) so the policy has always been confused.
Despite the SNP coming up with the only possible question which reflects the current powers of the Scots parliament Labour like to pretend the question is 'rigged' (they are experts in this area themselves after the 1979 referendum) and now pretend that because of the recession we can't have a referendum. Yet they caused the recession by following Conservative gospel on deregulation and it is obvious we need power over our own economy. So I'm sorry this bill would be cheap, it is important and yes we can and should be able to consult the people on their future.
The SNP are working within a lower financial settlement in real terms but so far they are not 'cutting spending on everything else' this is simply inaccurate.
9) Assuming an independent Scotland dumps the pound, what effect will exchange rate fluctuation and conversion charges have on our businesses?
SNP Policy is actually to retain the pound for as long as required then move to the Euro when it is economically appropriate. Some of your other questions relate to this point.
10) If we did adopt the Euro wouldn't that take financial decision making even further away from Scotland than it is already?
Well your question admits that financial decision making is far from Scotland just now and indeed it is. If we are in the Euro then we have a common currency with much of the EU. This makes trade easier. It also means we would have a more stable currency, as the pound fluctuates violently against other currencies at the moment.
Yes the European Central Bank would take decisions on interest rates etc for the good of the EU as a whole but in the interests of financial stability I think that makes better sense.
However it is important to remember that the ultimate decision on whether to stay in the EU or adopt the Euro or keep the Queen as head of state will be made by our own Government after independence. The SNP have a policy on these things and it right that they have but that does not mean that is what will happen after independence.
11) Would those who vote against independence be stripped of British citizenship and forced to adopt Scottish nationality against their will?
Since Britain would no longer exist there would ultimately be a choice between English and Scots nationality, however Mike Russell has indicated that there might be some interim arrangements with the rump UK state for as long as that exists.
12) What would happen to Scots living in England and Wales who become unemployed? Would they be paid benefits by Scotland, Britain or neither?
For those who live In England and Wales it would be paid by the Governments there. In Scotland it would be paid by the Scottish Government
13) What about the 10% of Scotland's population who were born in England? Will they be forced to choose between Scottishness and Englishness?
No, those who live in Scotland will be treated as Scots, those who think of themselves as Scottish or were born in Scotland could also apply for Scottish citizenship if they chose.
14) Will the 800,000+ Scots living in England and Wales be forced to choose between Scottish and British citizenship?
Ultimately yes because Britain won't exist any more but as I say the Scottish Government is open to suggestions for an interim arrangement.
15) Our remaining shipywards are only surviving because of large orders from the UK navy. What would happen to them after independence?
Well there isn't many of them left but those that do have a contract which wil run its course. Afterwards Scotland will require a Navy and under EU rules they could also apply for English military contracts on an equitable basis.
16) The (Scotland's conversation) website doesn't answer the key questions around currency or finance nor can it guarantee how the EU and UK will react.
No that's correct, we can't guarantee how the EU or rump UK will react to independence because it hasn't happened yet! British unionists like to pretend that the EU will reject Scots membership however our opinion (unsurprisingly) is that the reverse is true. If we do have to re-negotiate membership we might well end up with a better deal or Scotland's independent Government might decide that it prefers to stay out of the EU altogether. That is the ultimate beauty of independence the Scots will decide what we want to do in Scotland! The UK/British state as it stands will not exist however we do know that because without Scotland there is no Britain.
Anyway, 'Scotlandsfuture' you can no longer say that no-one has answered your questions. You might not like the answers but you have got them.
Personally I think you should remove your Union Jack tinted specs and genuinely think about Scotland's future. Unlike the UK or Britain, Scotland is a country and we deserve better than the sterile status quo or right wing Government whether that be from Labour or Tories.
6 comments:
1) I agree that you'll find some people on national forums and chatrooms who post 'sweaty socks' type remarks but they're a small minority. Most people really don't care much one way or the other. But I have found over the last year or two that it has become impossible to discuss any SNP policy without sustained and continual personal attacks. It's happened to me and I've seen it happen to others. The Scotsman website is a good example - I could even name the people who're doing this. It's all public and easily verified. It may be that there are a small number of people effectively spamming a large number of forums in the hope of shutting down debate but I can't help feeling it's organised. Either way it doesn't help the SNP and it doesn't help Scotland. Whether or not we have a referendum and whatever the result we all have to live together and behaviour like that does not bode well for our future.
2) I think it's absolutely hilarious that in response to claims of ad-hominem attacks you say "No Questions yet but more witless allegations." I couldn't make this up.
3) Do you believe debating issues that will affect all of us is "scaremongering"? Do you think everyone should just take your word for it that independence is the right way forward? That we shouldn't talk about it? I have asked honest and simple questions because I have not seen anyone else discussing them never mind answering them. That's how it works in democracies. You propose a policy. Others discuss the pros and cons. People make their minds up. We have a vote. If you don't want people discussing independence what conclusion should I draw?
4) I'm still waiting for an answer to the question of currency.
6) In other words you're admitting that you have absolutely no idea whether or not an independent Scottish government would have more money or less money to spend on services. For all you know we could be looking at massive cuts. You simply don't know.
7) It's too convenient. The very first vote they want to reduce the age for will be the only one they really care about - independence - and it just so happens that support for independence is traditionally higher in that age bracket. It also contradicts SNP policy on alcohol and cigarettes. They're old enough to vote but too young to decide from themselves what to buy?
8) That doesn't answer my question. I asked how the SNP can find money for a referendum while it is cutting funding for important services.
9+10) You're assuming that the rest of the UK would be willing to let an independent Scotland - a foreign country - continue to use its currency. It also means that you would have even less control over currency than we do now. If Scotland did eventually adopt the Euro it would mean that trade with our biggest partner - the rest of the UK - would be subject to currency conversion charges and exchange rate fluctuations. That could have a massive impact on our businesses. Has anyone ever tried to quantify that?
What about the fact that our savings are held with UK banks denominated in pounds? Presumably someone would have to pay to convert them to Euros? Who?
What about the fact that our pensions are invested in the London stock exchange denominated in pounds? What impact would that have on our pensions?
Many Scottish high-earners have to travel to London and other parts of the UK quite frequently. That would all become subject to currency effects as well. Cost?
The biggest gripe I've heard about currency over the years has been that interest rates are set for the London economy - a valid complaint. But which economy do you think European interest rates will be set for? It certainly won't be Scotland's.
11) If Scotland leaves the UK that does not automatically mean that England, Wales and Northern Ireland will split up. There will still be a post-UK state, whatever it's called.
At the moment Mike Russell actually appears to think dual-citizenship might be a possibility, but the fact is he has absolutely no idea what can or will be negotiated.
But what you are saying is that if the SNP won a referendum all those who didn't want independence would be stripped of their citizenship against their will.
And you think this is a basis for a happy and successful independent state?
12) If the Scots in England and Wales don't have citizenship there can you be sure they won't just be told to "go home"?
13) The implication is that they will be treated as foreigners unless they renounce their UK citizenship. Not only is this wrong it also raises the potential for a large number of people to simply leave Scotland and go back to England, Wales or Northern Ireland.
14) That is just plain immoral. It's also not what the SNP are currently saying ;)
15) First of all, they wouldn't be "English" military contracts. They would be British military contracts, unless you still think the SNP referendum would also result in independence for Wales and Northern Ireland. As for Scotland winning them on an equitable basis, well that's a bit naive. We don't win too much work from the French or Spanish navies do we? I can just imagine the reaction of the Daily Mail if an independent Scotland was awarded work that could have gone to shipyards in other parts of the UK.
16) Actually the conversation website doesn't answer many questions. But the key point here is that, unlike almost any other policy, independence is irreversible. We can't just change our minds if it doesn't work out. So we have to be absolutely sure it's the right way forward. We have to explore every consequence, good or bad and make an informed judgement about it.
But these issues just aren't being discussed. I haven't seen them discussed on television or in the papers. I haven't heard politicians from any party discussing them. When people try and discuss them in forums and chatrooms they get shouted down and called traitors.
If there is going to be a referendum we must get it all out in the open.
Thanks for taking the time to discuss this though. It's a good sign that at least some SNP supporters are willing to engage with others.
As I say I think you'll find that independence supporters do engage with others, however they might well ignore questions which are unanswerable before independence.
I didn't expect you to change your point of view, you have said that the UK is your country, even though it isn't one so it's pretty clear what your attitude is.
Given that every other country in Europe copes with the Euro I suspect Scotland is entirely capable of doing the same.
On international charges my current bank account (with the Bank of Scotland) gives free transactions on Euros up to the equivalent of £8,000. If it's over 8K it costs the princely sum of 3 quid! So it wouldn't exactly break the bank would it if we had to convert currencies as we do just now anyway if we get a payment from Europe.
A lot of this stuff is answerable with simple logic or by doing some searching. Most people in the independence movement have considered the pros and cons over many years and have came to the conclusion that any uncertainty over what might happen post independence is preferable to being actively misruled by a Government which simply does not represent our interests.
When we have a referendum on independence I'm sure the media will try and explore all possible pitfalls but don't expect people to believe that we Scots are incapable of acting like a normal country and representing ourselves on the world stage because it is simply not credible.
I suspect the unionists don't want a referendum because they know they will lose it. I have yet to hear any logical argument against independence. Other countries cope without the guiding hand of Britain and we can as well.
Anyway it's been enjoyable arguing with you and come back with any other queries you have but try and think first "does any other country cope with this already? If so, why can't Scotland?" That might help you work out whether your question is relevant or not or whether you are just trying to nit pick.
I suspect the latter!
It's not really good enough to say that people should have to go off an search for obscure websites to find answers to these questions. If the SNP and its supporters want to fundamentally and irreversibly change the nature of this country then it really is up to them to persuade the rest of us. If they truly believe independence is the best way forward then they should have no qualms about openly debating the issues.
I can't comment on your Bank of Scotland account but I do know that when the company I work for trades with other countries we are subject to foreign exchange commission charges and have on occasion had our profits completely wiped out by exchange rate fluctuations. I also wonder why people pay so much commission when they go on holiday if the BOS is giving such a generous deal.
Re your last question, yes of course other countries have coped with these issues, but I don't want to cope, I want to thrive and prosper! When the other Eurozone countries adopted the Euro they went in as whole countries along with their major trading partners but if Scotland went in without the rest of the UK we would uniquely be erecting a barrier between ourselves and our biggest market. I'm also rather confused by the SNP's stance on the Euro because one of their main arguments for independence is that decisions are made 400 miles away in London, but if we join the Euro then our monetary policy will be decided 700 miles away in Frankfurt! Also, many people in the Eurozone are also becoming increasingly unhappy with having a single policy for 16 different economies.
This isn't nit-picking. I have real concerns. I experienced unemployment in the recession of the early '90s and I'm not willing to make a bet on independence unless I'm absolutely sure it won't damage our economy. I've only got one life and there's no way I'm going to risk spending any more of it without a job or on low pay. Just look at Ireland now - 12.5% unemployment versus 7% in Scotland and with a downgraded credit rating while the UK has (somehow!) retained AAA status.
As for the referendum - I honestly think SNP supporters are deluding themselves if they think they would win it right now. The polls and election results don't support such a conclusion and I think in a real referendum the yes vote would be even lower because people would have second thoughts when presented with the possibility it could really happen. For that reason I'm coming round to the idea that we should have a referendum as soon as possible and deal with the issue once and for all ;)
Good, encourage your unionist friends to support the SNP's bill in 2010 then.
Only if you'll encourage your nationalist friends to engage openly and honestly with the rest of us and to really debate the issues instead of slagging people off for raising them ;)
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